Zagor

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d6&d6
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Zagor

Post by d6&d6 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:04 am

Hi everybody. In my next adventure, I will send my player's into the Firetop Mountain just like the first FF book. To convince them to go there, I added some drama they're involved with but for my part, it's just the pleasure of visiting this place in an rpg context.

So I want to make the stats for Zagor and I'm asking for your opinion.

In the "Warlock" gamebook, Zagor is SKILL 11 and STAMINA 18

Throughout his career in his many gamebooks and novels, he has shown these powers (taken from Titannica)
"Zagor is often referred as one of the greatest sorcerers ever seen in Titan. He has a wide array of powers at his disposal which range from animating normal objects, materialising things drawn in the ground and the walls or seeing and talking to someone through a picture representing him, to shape-shifting, teleportation, hypnosis, bewitching cards, summoning Elementals and Demons, casting resurrection spells or cursing someone through a mere writing."

In the d20 module, he's a 10th level sorcerer into this 4th level adventure.

As a start, I see him as a wizard and also a necromancer. I'd like to have your ideas of his character sheet.

I'll try to continue my homework for this and also come up with other ideas.

Thanks
Tentez votre chance...

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Re: Zagor

Post by Mr Nibbs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:29 am

d6&d6 wrote:Hi everybody. In my next adventure, I will send my player's into the Firetop Mountain just like the first FF book. To convince them to go there, I added some drama they're involved with but for my part, it's just the pleasure of visiting this place in an rpg context.

So I want to make the stats for Zagor and I'm asking for your opinion.

In the "Warlock" gamebook, Zagor is SKILL 11 and STAMINA 18

Throughout his career in his many gamebooks and novels, he has shown these powers (taken from Titannica)
"Zagor is often referred as one of the greatest sorcerers ever seen in Titan. He has a wide array of powers at his disposal which range from animating normal objects, materialising things drawn in the ground and the walls or seeing and talking to someone through a picture representing him, to shape-shifting, teleportation, hypnosis, bewitching cards, summoning Elementals and Demons, casting resurrection spells or cursing someone through a mere writing."

In the d20 module, he's a 10th level sorcerer into this 4th level adventure.

As a start, I see him as a wizard and also a necromancer. I'd like to have your ideas of his character sheet.

I'll try to continue my homework for this and also come up with other ideas.

Thanks

You may know of this already...
http://fightingfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Zagor

"In every book, Zagor is a formidable foe, especially in the second where he can't be weakened by any mean and the third where he is truly fearsome. In the first two books, he has 11 in skill and 18 in stamina.

In Legend of Zagor, he has 16 in skill and 20 in stamina, which makes him one of the most powerful antagonists of all the Fighting Fantasy books along with the Night Dragon (skill 17 stamina 32) and Titanium Cyborg (skill 18 stamina 20). He can only be defeated by decreasing his skill with the Golden Lockets and can attack with a lightning spell, (minus 7 stamina points) a fireball spell, (minus 5 stamina points) or a life absorbing spell, (minus 2 stamina points and 1 skill point) a poisoned dagger, (minus 3 stamina points) and his fists/claws (minus 2 stamina points)."

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Re: Zagor

Post by MountainPeak11 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:25 pm

Hey Francois

I agree with all of that, but I think it would be good to add a bit of chaos magic in there too. Zagor is the ultimate badass of magic on Titan and few have matched him. I would also up the SKILL by one or two points IMO, since he'll be up against at least 4 people.

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Re: Zagor

Post by Mr Nibbs » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:54 pm

MountainPeak11 wrote:Hey Francois

I agree with all of that, but I think it would be good to add a bit of chaos magic in there too. Zagor is the ultimate badass of magic on Titan and few have matched him. I would also up the SKILL by one or two points IMO, since he'll be up against at least 4 people.
Only four up against Zagor's monster army? They must be nuts!

More from Wiki Titannica...
According to the sage Ellagrim Grimalkin of Fang, Zagor's first name is Oldoran, a name reminiscent of the ancient name for Zengis, Goldoran, the town of his birth. He was the son of a merchant wizard from Zengis called Gerlekus Zagor who in turn was the great-grandson of the sorcerer known as Gallan Zagor, Zagor's great-great-grandfather. Gallan had made vast sums of money from the practice of sorcery and had been the first of the Zagors to move into Firetop Mountain, driven by a need to protect his hoard.

Demonic Origins
There are stories that suggest Gerlekus Zagor was a necromancer whose ambition was to produce an heir whose mother was of Demonic origins. Zagor was the result and was brought into the world through the use of three ritual arcana: a ceremonial robe (once in the possession of Princess Farina Endul Kerithrion of the Dark Elf city of Tìranduil Kelthas); a chalice (guarded by mutant Gonchong-infected undead Giants on an uncharted island in the depths of Lake Nykosa); and a sword (wielded by Zagor's Demonic mother who must be summoned at his birthplace of Skullcrag in a cavern beneath an enormous skull of ice that lies in a crater on the Frozen Plateau). This demonic origin tale has one serious flaw, however, in that it states Zagor is over 3000 years old which is incongruous with what else we know of him.

The Demonic Three
It is said that Zagor was part of the the Demonic Three, the best students of the sorcerer Volgera Darkstorm, along with Balthus Dire and Zharradan Marr. The three were friends and rivals who killed their master with a Rain of Knives spell, when they thought that he was no longer of any use to them. However, it was later claimed that Zagor had no part in the murder of his mentor and resented deeply the other two for their actions.[8] After that, he separated with the other two, and headed North for Firetop Mountain. Perhaps it was his ancestor, Gallan's, eviction by the Dwarfs of Redweed that drove Zagor's ambition to reclaim the mountain domain, or perhaps it was the sheer presence of his inheritance held deep within the passages of Firetop. Whatever the reason, he recruited an army of monsters and retook the mountain domain from the Dwarfs. Zagor came to Firetop Mountain on Stormsday 5th of Fire, 249AC.

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Re: Zagor

Post by darksoul » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:42 am

Mr Nibbs wrote:
MountainPeak11 wrote:Hey Francois

I agree with all of that, but I think it would be good to add a bit of chaos magic in there too. Zagor is the ultimate badass of magic on Titan and few have matched him. I would also up the SKILL by one or two points IMO, since he'll be up against at least 4 people.
Only four up against Zagor's monster army? They must be nuts!

More from Wiki Titannica...
According to the sage Ellagrim Grimalkin of Fang, Zagor's first name is Oldoran, a name reminiscent of the ancient name for Zengis, Goldoran, the town of his birth. He was the son of a merchant wizard from Zengis called Gerlekus Zagor who in turn was the great-grandson of the sorcerer known as Gallan Zagor, Zagor's great-great-grandfather. Gallan had made vast sums of money from the practice of sorcery and had been the first of the Zagors to move into Firetop Mountain, driven by a need to protect his hoard.

Demonic Origins
There are stories that suggest Gerlekus Zagor was a necromancer whose ambition was to produce an heir whose mother was of Demonic origins. Zagor was the result and was brought into the world through the use of three ritual arcana: a ceremonial robe (once in the possession of Princess Farina Endul Kerithrion of the Dark Elf city of Tìranduil Kelthas); a chalice (guarded by mutant Gonchong-infected undead Giants on an uncharted island in the depths of Lake Nykosa); and a sword (wielded by Zagor's Demonic mother who must be summoned at his birthplace of Skullcrag in a cavern beneath an enormous skull of ice that lies in a crater on the Frozen Plateau). This demonic origin tale has one serious flaw, however, in that it states Zagor is over 3000 years old which is incongruous with what else we know of him.

The Demonic Three
It is said that Zagor was part of the the Demonic Three, the best students of the sorcerer Volgera Darkstorm, along with Balthus Dire and Zharradan Marr. The three were friends and rivals who killed their master with a Rain of Knives spell, when they thought that he was no longer of any use to them. However, it was later claimed that Zagor had no part in the murder of his mentor and resented deeply the other two for their actions.[8] After that, he separated with the other two, and headed North for Firetop Mountain. Perhaps it was his ancestor, Gallan's, eviction by the Dwarfs of Redweed that drove Zagor's ambition to reclaim the mountain domain, or perhaps it was the sheer presence of his inheritance held deep within the passages of Firetop. Whatever the reason, he recruited an army of monsters and retook the mountain domain from the Dwarfs. Zagor came to Firetop Mountain on Stormsday 5th of Fire, 249AC.

I think it's interesting that the Zagor character has gotten played around with a lot.
That same Titannica article notes that your character doesn't even have a good reason to kill Zagor. When I was younger I'm sure I thought, "Yeah this is a cool story." but "Warlock of Firetop Mountain" and "The Trolltooth wars" don't portray him as a completely evil character.

Anyways, it might be an interesting idea, if there was a story where players must capture the killer of Zagor and have the killer be evil or selfish. By killing Zagor his greed has actually made things worse for everyone else and made an Evil man even more evil.

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Re: Zagor

Post by Nuvole! » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:20 am

I think that the best villains are the ones that are not totally, pure, mindless evil... think about the Riddling Reaver as well...
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Re: Zagor

Post by d6&d6 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:48 pm

Hullalla wrote:I think that the best villains are the ones that are not totally, pure, mindless evil...
While maybe not purely evil, in my campaign, he brings lot of troubles that my PC's has to resolve and they got to go in that Mountain to maybe kill him again (after millions of readers did that :P)

I have some numbers to throw here, I have my AFF core book opened in front of me :

STAMINA 18 : OK for me
MAGIC 12 : if I use the rules for having more than one type of magic in the last section of the core book, that's the least he should have with 6 in wizardry leading him the have another type such as necromancy maybe

For the suggestion as Chaos Magician (thanks Jenny ;)), I don't know since that type of magic is very dangerous and thet way it goes (in game) these characters won't live long... the Google hangout I did was with one Chaos Magician and once, he fell near death because of a chaos backlash. As my imagination of a FF reader, I see Zagor as more disciplined.

That's a throw, I,d like to have your opions before I forge the rest

Thanks for all the replies!

François
Tentez votre chance...

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Re: Zagor

Post by torus » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:24 am

I like to think Zagor is actually a misunderstood character and not really evil at all, although not good either. The stuff from the Zagor Chronicles books (which I haven't read) about him being half demon seems pretty dubious to me and I'm inclined to reject it as myth.

Stuart Lloyd had a great post along these lines a couple of years ago: http://www.lloydofgamebooks.com/2011/02 ... -hero.html.

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Re: Zagor

Post by Slloyd14 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:02 pm

torus wrote:I like to think Zagor is actually a misunderstood character and not really evil at all, although not good either. The stuff from the Zagor Chronicles books (which I haven't read) about him being half demon seems pretty dubious to me and I'm inclined to reject it as myth.

Stuart Lloyd had a great post along these lines a couple of years ago: http://www.lloydofgamebooks.com/2011/02 ... -hero.html.
Many thanks, for the link, Torus!

Although I made some of that theory up (the national trust, for instance), the only source that stats that Zagor is evil is Return to Firetop Mountain. In Legend of Zagor, it is unclear about how much of the Zagor-Demon is Zagor and how much is the Bone Demon. You could say that Zagor is weakening the Demon. After all, I don't think he escaped to another world to fuse himself with a demon. In the Trolltoth Wars, Zagor is very helpful when he hears that his 'buddies' both have huge armies which will cause a lot of destruction across Allansia. He seems to not want this to happen. He only fights in self defence in both WOTT and Trolltooth Wars and in Legend of Zagor, he is not himself. I think return to Firetop Mountain could be told from the point of view of an unreliable narrator or as a conspiracy amongst the peasants who just don't like sorcery. In that sense, he is at least neutral on the good/evil scale. Sure, he uses orcs and other monsters to guard his mountain, but he doesn't send them out on raids and maybe he can't get human guards because of his bad reputation.

So, in short, Zagor could be a wizard who wants to mind his own business, but because of something that happened in the past, he has incurred the wrath of the local population or the forces of 'good' for being different. Who knows what he was really planning? It seems that most of his plots were motivated by a desire to be left alone (WOFT, Trolltooth Wars and Legend of Zagor when he hopped worlds).
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Re: Zagor

Post by Slloyd14 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:18 pm

d6&d6 wrote:
Hullalla wrote:I think that the best villains are the ones that are not totally, pure, mindless evil...
While maybe not purely evil, in my campaign, he brings lot of troubles that my PC's has to resolve and they got to go in that Mountain to maybe kill him again (after millions of readers did that :P)

I have some numbers to throw here, I have my AFF core book opened in front of me :

STAMINA 18 : OK for me
MAGIC 12 : if I use the rules for having more than one type of magic in the last section of the core book, that's the least he should have with 6 in wizardry leading him the have another type such as necromancy maybe

For the suggestion as Chaos Magician (thanks Jenny ;)), I don't know since that type of magic is very dangerous and thet way it goes (in game) these characters won't live long... the Google hangout I did was with one Chaos Magician and once, he fell near death because of a chaos backlash. As my imagination of a FF reader, I see Zagor as more disciplined.

That's a throw, I,d like to have your opions before I forge the rest

Thanks for all the replies!

François
I think that Zagor would have 6 points in Magic - wizardry and some points in Magic - arcane, where one of his rituals would be the one that stops him from dying and the other one could be giving more powers within Firetop Mountain (such as more power to control creatures, the ability to see anywhere in the mountain and communicate through paintings?)

Also, this blog post (http://fightingfantasist.blogspot.co.uk ... tains.html) might help explain why there is a magic gem in Firetop Mountain that will kill him. Zagor made a pact with another entity for some kind of power (either lots and lots of spells or more magic points or some special ability or maybe the unkillable ability) and as payment, he must have the gem in his home. In an attempt to guard it, he had it put in the iron cyclops.
http://virtualfantasies.blogspot.com/

A blog about writing gamebooks. My musings on how to write a gamebook and what makes a good gamebook.

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Re: Zagor

Post by darksoul » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:25 am

It's an interesting article. I have my own theories though.

My theory is based on literary and mythology ideas.

Many items and powers in literature an mythology are believed to be directly related to Gods, or to have some kind of power associated with it. For example In Shakespeare's The Tempest, the Spirit creature, Ariel, was trapped in a Cloven Pine. Why that tree? The oak Tree is associated with Zeus. While the Pine is associated with Dionysus.

I see 2 possibilities here.
1) When a character achieves new power or ability, it usually represents something symbolic, but the drawbacks of that power are symbolic as well. Unparalleled beauty can be equated with Narcissism. Being narcissistic can mean that you don't love anyone else. The heart is the symbol of love. Therefore you could say a person casting a ritual for unparalleled beauty must sacrifice his own heart or keep it in an vase. He become beautiful, but cold hearted to anyone else.

This sort of play with items and words was something Shakespeare did all the time.

2) Similar to the above idea but a little different. Each new imbued power affects the personality is some way.
Becoming immortal might mean no fear of death, but fear has some positive aspects to it. It makes us human.
When a character changes something in themselves, they no long become what they were.

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Re: Zagor

Post by d6&d6 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:38 pm

I like where this thread is going. I've read all the messages and the blog from Sloyd and I'm beginning to trace a portrait of the character in regard with what he's up to in my campaign.

In my version of him, he has found old tablets with a ritual on it. This ritual makes demi-gods out of "heroes" (people with LUCK skill) by stealing powers from the gods. These demi gods are also in the service of their caster, that's included into the ritual.

For example, Zagor have already transformed a npc hero into a wind demi-god stealing from Pangara itself. Pangara is now a powerless god into the celestial court. Not going into details on how it works, I will just say that Zagor wants to have demi god servants to rule over Allansia.

Reading the posts and blogs, I see it as an occasion for him to overpower dangerous adversaries with a very powerful artifact. He used to be left alone but now, he wants more.

So Zagor

SKILL ? --- STAMINA 18 --- LUCK ? --- MAGIC 12 --- MAGIC POINTS 24
Wizardry 6
Arcane 2 (or 3)

What else? I'll come back later for that
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