Any plan for à third édition ?

[LordArioch]

re: crits

Instead of 6-6 (2.78%), why not any double (16.67%) as a "magic" effect or skill-based reward for more experienced PCs?

[Eddie]

rather than quoting multiple people in one post i am going to reply to the last 3 here

so higher WSS giving less penalties when using special combat options could work, but i think people would just always go all out attack after having WSS 2 because they'd just get a +1 bonus to damage.

the idea of SS levels remove negatives works to a degree, i do like it, but it does mean 2 people with equal Skill are equally good at climbing (using your example) an easy climbable surface.

which leads to the funny situation where the skilled one fails to climb something easy repeatedly, then an almost impossible climb they shimmy up it like it's nothing...!!


excessively high hit rolls = critical would reduce the use of All out attack combat option (why take -2 to hit for +1 damage if you're more likely to get a critical hit without that -2 to hit?)

the doubles idea is of interest. Maybe WSS increases gives an additional chance of a critical hit with a double 5 instead of just a double 6 like Lord Arioch suggested, on the basis that you also won the round anyway.
this would scale okay because by the time you are scoring double 3 chances are you won't win the round unless your opponent is very low combat score anyway.

so WSS1 gives +1 Combat Score, WSS 2 gives +1 Combat score and double 5 gives a critical hit if you won the round anyway and so on.

could work, looks more complicated to explain how it works, but doesn't increase the complexity of the actual die roll and maths.

[Nuvole!]

In general the All out attack option is not much used by my players anyway: they'd do anything to have a higher attack roll, rather than lower + more damage.

[SkinnyOrc]

I'm curious, are people reluctant to give increased crit ranges instead of some AS bonuses for WSS? If you are is it because you don't like making WSS work differently to other skills, or you don't want to do anything that increases crits?

In some games criticals are really dangerous, but in AFF2 there's no decapitation or other insta-death from them. As Eddie pointed out, they're of more danger to the PCs due to the erosion of their SKILL over multiple encounters, but the PCs getting to deal out a few more of them doesn't make that much difference, and a lot less than more AS bonuses.

Even adding extra crits to monsters is fine as long as they only get them if their SKILL is high enough. Looking at end results, I'd rather significantly reduce those crits from numerous weak creatures and have more from the big bads so they're scarier.

Here's a way of avoiding the absurd skill + special skill scores.

Special skills only reduce penalties - they don't provide bonuses.

I had to let this one settle, it's an innovative and interesting idea. At the end of the day I do like how special skill bonuses in the rulebook work for everything except weapons. It's just simple and intuitive. So I don't really want to throw that out to fix what I see as an issue just with WSS. But I'm happy to do something different for WSS to most of the other special skills, I don't see why that's a problem.

Completely agree that special skills should allow you to do some things automatically, and I think also should change what the worst and best results possible from a test are. That comes down a lot to Director judgement, but adding some examples would be really helpful in a revised rulebook.

Critical hits: I think there could be an optional rule to deal critical hits not only when you roll a double 6, but also when your attack roll is much higher than needed to hit

I've thought about basing crits on how much you win the round by, it's logical it would work like that. But it means you're doing a calculation every combat roll to see if it's a crit, and that's going to slow the game down more than I'd like. There's always a balance to strike between realism and what's going to run smoothly in a game.

[Slloyd14]

Ooh, here's another one that I haven't tested yet. I've just had the thought. When you do a skill test, you roll 2d6 +1d6 for every point of relevant special skill you have and take the best two d6s. This is a very occasioal mechanic in Fighting Fantasy (like the Fast Hands spell) - it never makes rolls higher than 12.

I just used anydice for the distribution of the best 2d6 when rolling 6d6 and the chance of rolling getting two 6s is 26.32% giving a 1 in 4 chance for a critical. Probably too high...

[SkinnyOrc]

I think there could be an optional rule to deal critical hits not only when you roll a double 6, but also when your attack roll is much higher than needed to hit

I clicked that when I've looked at doing this before it was for other games, and with the way AFF2 works the calculation is really easy. You already know the adjusted AS of both sides to decide who wins, so you just have a crit being winning the round by 6 or more, or whatever the number is for the PC with that weapon. I think you could use this instead of on a 12. What's maybe tricky is figuring out what the right numbers are at each WSS level for the AS difference to get a crit, so they happen with the right frequency.

When you do a skill test, you roll 2d6 +1d6 for every point of relevant special skill you have and take the best two d6s. This is a very occasioal mechanic in Fighting Fantasy (like the Fast Hands spell) - it never makes rolls higher than 12.

It's a neat mechanic which makes me want to find a use for it. The combat system likely isn't the best place for it though because it involves rolling a lot of dice. It might be an alternative for non-combat tests.

[Nuvole!]

I think there could be an optional rule to deal critical hits not only when you roll a double 6, but also when your attack roll is much higher than needed to hit

I clicked that when I've looked at doing this before it was for other games, and with the way AFF2 works the calculation is really easy. You already know the adjusted AS of both sides to decide who wins, so you just have a crit being winning the round by 6 or more, or whatever the number is for the PC with that weapon. I think you could use this instead of on a 12. What's maybe tricky is figuring out what the right numbers are at each WSS level for the AS difference to get a crit, so they happen with the right frequency.

To me it makes sense that, if you can hit your opponent easily (i.e. by a wide margin) you should be able to deal more (critical) damage as well, while normally criticals are just a lucky factor accessible to everybody with the same frequency (roll 12).

[SkinnyOrc]

To me it makes sense that, if you can hit your opponent easily (i.e. by a wide margin) you should be able to deal more (critical) damage as well, while normally criticals are just a lucky factor accessible to everybody with the same frequency (roll 12).

Okay I see what you're saying, you should be able to get crits by ability or by getting lucky. That does make sense.

As Eddie was saying, the "lucky crits" on a double six are a bit of a problem because they become a statistical certainty with enough attacks happening. On the other hand you do want a 12 to always win the round so there's a chance no matter what the SKILL difference. In my Combat Options pdf I had that crits on numbers other than 12 weren't automatic wins and the crit has no effect if you don't win. I didn't want to mess with how a 12 worked, but I can see now you need to.

So what I suggest is any time someone rolls what they need for a crit (my doc has extended crit ranges for high SKILL creatures too) it only does the double damage and SKILL loss if they have the higher combat total that round. A double six automatically wins the round but doesn't guarantee them the higher combat total. I would think of the criticals and the winning the round on a 12 as completely separate things.

What that means is the percent chances below for my extended crit ranges based on WSS are only for if you're winning. If you have WSS 3 and get crits on an 11 or 12 you have an 8.32% chance of a crit on the rounds you win.

WSS .... AS. ... Critical ... Crit %
0 ....... -2 ....... 12 ....... 2.77
1 ....... +0 ....... 12 ....... 2.77
2 ....... +1 ....... 12 ....... 2.77
3 ....... +1 ..... 11-12 ..... 8.32
4 ....... +2 ..... 11-12 ..... 8.32
5 ....... +2 ..... 10-12 .... 16.67
6 ....... +3 ..... 10-12 .... 16.67

That also means weak creatures can still get lucky and inflict a crit on a PC, but it's much less likely than 1 in 36 because they need to not only roll a 12 but also for the PC to roll low.

I think a revision of my combat pdf is inevitable at this point...

[Dawndeath]

So what I suggest is any time someone rolls what they need for a crit (my doc has extended crit ranges for high SKILL creatures too) it only does the double damage and SKILL loss if they have the higher combat total that round. A double six automatically wins the round but doesn't guarantee them the higher combat total. I would think of the criticals and the winning the round on a 12 as completely separate things.

What that means is the percent chances below for my extended crit ranges based on WSS are only for if you're winning. If you have WSS 3 and get crits on an 11 or 12 you have an 8.32% chance of a crit on the rounds you win.

WSS .... AS. ... Critical ... Crit %
0 ....... -2 ....... 12 ....... 2.77
1 ....... +0 ....... 12 ....... 2.77
2 ....... +1 ....... 12 ....... 2.77
3 ....... +1 ..... 11-12 ..... 8.32
4 ....... +2 ..... 11-12 ..... 8.32
5 ....... +2 ..... 10-12 .... 16.67
6 ....... +3 ..... 10-12 .... 16.67

That also means weak creatures can still get lucky and inflict a crit on a PC, but it's much less likely than 1 in 36 because they need to not only roll a 12 but also for the PC to roll low.

I think a revision of my combat pdf is inevitable at this point...

Okay, I was a little skeptical at first simply because the suggested changes make combat slightly more complicated; since the speed and simplicity of AFF combat is one of the big appeals of the system for me. But this reasoning makes a lot of sense and I think I will have to give it a try.

I'm definitely keen to see any updates to your combat options pdf, SkinnyOrc.

[SkinnyOrc]

It's definitely an issue that 1 attack in 36 is a crit regardless of how low the creature's AS is, and unlinking the always wins on a double six from getting a crit is the only answer I can see. Checking who won the round if a 12's rolled, to see if it's also a crit, is a small price to pay game speed wise. We were checking who won for anything other than a 12 already.

That's all separate from my Combat Options so I'll cover how they affect game speed. Expanded crit ranges for PCs based on WSS, you just need you to know what they need to roll for each weapon. So I included a modified character sheet that gives boxes to note AS plus and crit range for each weapon, alongside the damage boxes. Using that the only effect on game speed is dealing with crits a bit more often. But even at WSS 6 the chance of a crit is about 1 in 6 of the rounds they win.

For my monster expanded crits, it's only if they have high SKILL so it's not happening all the time. You might want to add the crit range in the creature stats in your notes when it's better than 12.

If you choose to use my alternative crit effects (completely optional to everything above) then that is an extra roll. But as crits don't happen every round it's not that big a drag on game speed either.

[Eddie]

Skinnyorc: i like your suggestion.

my concern with "any roll high enough" becoming a critical is that having a high CS is already being rewarded by simply winning combat rounds and would totally undervalue the all out attack option available to playaers and monsters alike.

reducing low Skill monsters Critical hits as you have suggested is a good idea.

back to my 12 goblins example: with 2 players they have 6 each to deal with, assuming they allow themselves to be separated and surrounded (they've done worse!) they would now be in a world of trouble even if maxed out for combat.
with 3 players doing the same with 4 goblins each they have -3 to combat score, assuming current rules Skill 7 and WSS 2 making total of 9 they are using an effective CS of 6...a bit hairy.

BUT if in round 1 they have the advantage of seeing what is about to happen, a move and attack using all out attack to take penalties to hit for bonus to damage it is not that hard to one shot a goblin.

i think the option is not used in situations like this where killing an enemy early prevents a loss of CS for the entire combat.
the combat lasting longer, especially with the CS penalty lasting longer and more attacks by monsters, can easily lead to more critical hits.

short version: I like Skinnyorc's proposal as it solves both issues (i think)

[Dawndeath]

short version: I like Skinnyorc's proposal as it solves both issues (i think)

Best thing to do is run a bunch of test combats covering various situations in order to try out the ideas that have been proposed. Keep what works for your game and style of play.

I think what I would like to see in any rules revision is the standard simple combat mechanism being retained, and various options - like those in SkinnyOrc's combat document - being presented for individual gaming groups to adopt as they see fit. I really love having a simple base set of rules, but also the flexibility to adapt and alter rules to make the game more personal for us. AFF is a great system for that.

[Eddie]

effectively modular additions that can be added if desired, but if removed don't change the base game.

i now have to check skinnyorc's combat options document, it's a hard life

[Eddie]

i like the combat options.

wouldn't use the extended critical hits table personally.

[Dawndeath]

effectively modular additions that can be added if desired, but if removed don't change the base game.

Yeah, a modular approach is a great way to look at it.